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Seanad Éireann - Volume 142 - 01 March, 1995

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning: It is proposed to take item 1 and item 2. With regard to item 1, it is proposed that the opening speaker for each group will have 20 minutes and each speaker thereafter ten minutes. The debate will continue until 10 p.m. and if it has not concluded by that time I propose to make further time available at a later date.

With regard to item 2, which will be taken between 6 p.m. and 8 p.m., it is proposed that the spokesperson for each group will have 30 minutes and other speakers 20 minutes thereafter.

Mr. Wright: I thank the Leader of the House for the arrangements for item 1. The time allocated will hopefully afford most Senators an opportunity to discuss the matter. I also appreciate that arrangements will be made in the coming weeks to facilitate those Senators who do not get a chance to speak today.

With regard to item 2, it is the intention of my party to ensure that all Stages of this Bill will be dealt with this week. [211] Hopefully, and in the interests of the problem which exists at present, the Government will agree to this Bill and tomorrow's Order of Business can be arranged accordingly.

Over the past couple of weeks we asked for a debate on the Price Waterhouse report. Hopefully the Leader of the House will be able to give a definite time when the Minister will attend the House to discuss the report.

Mr. Dardis: The leader of Fianna Fáil in the House is speaking as though he were still Leader of the House in terms of his proposal to dispose of all Stages of a Bill.

Mr. Farrelly: Perhaps it is loss of memory on his part.

Mr. Dardis: However, we will wait until we come to that hurdle tomorrow.

Mr. Wright: My request was made subject to agreement.

Mr. Dardis: Will the Leader of the House indicate the proposals, if any, to debate the findings of the special subcommittee of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security, and more especially the proposals which the Government has to ensure that committees of this nature, and the committees which are being established at present, have powers of compellability and have powers to reach findings within the context of Oireachtas reform?

I support Senator Wright's request for a debate on the Defence Forces. This has been a recurring call since the present session commenced after Christmas. What are the consequences of the Price Waterhouse report and the report of the EAG group? At present we appear to be confronted with a series of leaks and denials and it is important that the Minister attends the House to tell us specifically what is the Government's policy with regard to the future of the Defence Forces.

[212] Mr. Maloney: I want to introduce you, a Chathaoirligh, to a little fellow they call Russ. Russ is being sold by Aer Lingus on their duty free flights all over the world. The strange thing about him——

An Cathaoirleach: Senator, you are not supposed to carry on with material like this. Have you a question to the Leader of the House?

Mr. Maloney: It is made in Indonesia. We have two questions on today's Order Paper dealing with atrocities by Indonesians against the people of East Timor. Will the Leader ask Aer Lingus to stop dealing with the Indonesians and selling their products on our national airline? It is a scandal when one considers the atrocities which have been carried out by that country.

Mr. O'Kennedy: Can the Leader of the House give guidance in respect of the role of the Seanad and leaders of the party groups in the Seanad because a statement which undermines the independence of the Judiciary was made by a leader of a party group in this House, namely Senator Magner? I seek the Leader's guidance as there are provisions in the Constitution which enable us to——

An Cathaoirleach: That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Mr. O'Kennedy: It is a very important procedure of the Oireachtas. The independence of the Judiciary has been undermined by the leader of the Labour Party in this House.

An Cathaoirleach: This is not the proper forum to deal with that matter.

Mr. O'Kennedy: I ask him to withdraw that statement. If he has a proposal to make he should know the procedure of the House——

An Cathaoirleach: The Chair and the House try to maintain the independence [213] of the Judiciary. Therefore, it is not discussed openly in the House and certainly not on the Order of Business. I understand the point the Senator is making. This would be appropriate for discussion by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the Senator can ask the Leader to take it up there.

Mr. O'Kennedy: I understand that you are concerned about maintaining the independence of the Judiciary. I ask the Leader of the House, through the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, to ensure that no Member of the Oireachtas feels free to undermine that independence unless they propose to adopt the constitutional provisions of impeachment.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has gone too far.

Mr. Farrelly: He must be a friend of the Senator's.

Mr. O'Kennedy: No; he is nonpolitical.

An Cathaoirleach: I ask Members to refrain from commenting on the Judiciary. Statements have been made and Members can say what they wish to say when the Bill comes to the House.

Mr. Lydon: I will not say anything about the Judiciary. I want to ask the Leader a serious question. Would it be possible to have a debate in the near future on the whole area of neutrality? I know there is a White Paper on foreign policy due but the issue of neutrality and our membership of the Western European Union and NATO will be of maximum importance to this country.

I congratulate the people of Swinford for having taken up a suggestion I made here on numerous occasions to invite Orange bands to march in the St. Patrick's Day parade.

Mr. McGowan: I ask the Leader to arrange a debate in the near future on the tourism industry. Additional funding [214] is available now and I want to ensure that this House has a voice in supporting the west. Small tourism developers have not got their fair share up to now. I hope the new funding from the EU will provide support for small developers. I am sure the Leader will accommodate the House by arranging a debate on the future of tourism as soon as possible.

Dr. Henry: Ireland is involved in the Human Genome Project and the European Parliament is debating the directive on biotechnology today. This is the legal protection of biotechnological invention which allows for the patenting of human life and permits commercial companies to own human genes and cultures of human cells. It is very likely that this directive will be passed today. I ask the Leader of the House if the Government has anticipated any of the legislation which will be needed here to follow this extremely serious directive from the European Union?

Mr. Finneran: What proposals does the Leader have for a debate on the current row between the independent private hospitals and the VHI? This is a very serious matter and the independent hospitals' association is threatening to increase the bills of patients in the private hospitals. This would be a very serious matter in so far as people——

An Cathaoirleach: I ask the Senator to put a question to the Leader.

Mr. Finneran: ——would not have made provision for such an increase in their bills. We appreciate that the private hospitals are providing a service but——

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is making a long speech. Does he have a question for the Leader?

Mr. Finneran: Yes. We want to protect the people who attend——

[215] An Cathaoirleach: Senator, I said three times that you are making a long speech.

Mr. Finneran: I am asking the Leader of the House if he will make time for a debate on this matter and if he will ask the Minister to respond in the House.

Mr. Cotter: I wish to ask about the ongoing review of the Road Traffic Act. What is its current status? What is the position regarding the drink driving sections and the amendments introduced recently? Many people directly involved are anxious to know what is happening. Does the Leader have any information for the House?

Mr. Mulcahy: I ask the Leader of the House to make time available to discuss drug related crime in Ireland. He will be aware of the huge quantity of drugs washed up on to the coast recently. He will also be aware that drugs fuel crime, which affects thousands of families. I ask the Leader to make time available to debate the drugs issue and law and order. The Leader's continued reluctance to invite the Minister for Justice to the House raises the suspicion that she has something to hide. This side has asked many——

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Mulcahy, you are making a speech. Have you a query for the Leader?

Mr. Mulcahy: Why will the Leader not invite the Minister for Justice into the House to discuss very serious law and order questions? Is there something to hide?

Mr. Farrelly: It all happened in the last month.

Mr. Norris: I strongly support the remarks of the Seanad leader of the Labour Party.

An Cathaoirleach: May I ask you, Senator Norris, not to make a bad situation worse.

[216] Mr. Norris: If there is a tradition of separation of powers in this State, it has been undermined by Mr. Justice O'Hanlon.

An Cathaoirleach: The Chair has indicated the position.

Mr. O'Kennedy: I find this quite extraordinary. I do not believe Senator Norris supports that.

Mr. Norris: It is very worrying——

An Cathaoirleach: On the Order of Business, Senator Norris, have you a question for the Leader?

Mr. Norris: ——that people make the type of remarks that were made. That gentleman wrote an article in the newspapers in which he said that the laws he was administering as far as——

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris, please.

Mr. Norris: ——a type of religious——

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris, I have ruled. Have you a question on the Order of Business to the Leader of the House?

Mr. Norris: I support Senator Maloney's call for a debate on relations with Indonesia and the question of East Timor. The point the Senator visually underlined with the small animal is highly important and serious. I attended a meeting of COSAC in Paris in the last couple of days and I raised the question of East Timor with the French Foreign Minister, Alain Juppé. The reply I received was basically to the effect that the European Union was not a human rights organisation. I do not think that is a satisfactory response on behalf of Foreign Ministers of our allies.

Mr. Lanigan: Will the Leader of the House ask the Minister for Health to come to the House in the near future [217] and indicate where the Government stands on the amount of money it is giving to the boxing board of control to run a fight in County Cork in view of the terrible incident which occurred in London recently? It was categorically stated——

An Cathaoirleach: It is not relevant, Senator.

Mr. Lanigan: It is relevant that the Minister should be asked to come to the House. I have asked the Leader to ask the Minister to come to the House. Barbarism and crookedness have taken over what was the sport of boxing. The Irish Government has provided £25,000 to run this particular event.

An Cathaoirleach: Senator Lanigan, you are totally out of order.

Mr. Lanigan: How will the Minister for Health deal with the situation if there is a similar incident to that which occurred in London?

I request a debate on the redeployment of Garda in view of the changes taking place in Border areas with regard to security. When one looks——

An Cathaoirleach: Senator, everybody seems to be making speeches. I have asked for questions to the Leader of the House.

Mr. Lanigan: Will the Leader ask the Minister for Justice to come into the House to discuss matters of grave concern, especially in view of the redeployment of troops from the Border areas?

I referred to Pakistan three weeks ago. We should keep the pressure on the Government of Pakistan in view of the fact that it is now trying to introduce the Sharia law, which would overpower its civil law. There was worldwide concern expressed when two people were sentenced to death there and had to leave the country.

An Cathaoirleach: You have made three speeches, Senator.

[218] Mr. Kelleher: I would like to bring item 9, motion 3, in the name of the Independent Senators, to the attention of the Leader. Has this issue been resolved? If not, there should be an immediate debate on it because this is a serious issue which has been raised in this House on numerous occasions. If the motion has been resolved, it should be removed from the Order Paper.

Ms Honan: It is proposed to take Second Stage of the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill, 1995, tomorrow. I understand the Government is to publish a Bill next week which will address some of the problems raised by this Bill. However, I am concerned that the Government would not address all of the issues. Could the Leader confirm that the Government will extend protection to cases taken under the 1935 Act? There is currently no reporting restrictions at all for sexual offences with under-age girls. If this is not done, we will be pressing to have this Bill debated.

Mr. Magner: In relation to statements made by Senator O'Kennedy that——

An Cathaoirleach: I have ruled accordingly.

Mr. Magner: ——as a point of information——

An Cathaoirleach: There is no point of information on the Order of Business.

Mr. Magner: I have the honour to be nominated to this House by Senator O'Sullivan, who is the leader of the Labour Party in this House. I am more than happy to be tried by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges; in fact, it might be wiser for me to be tried by that committee than by the courts.

Mr. O'Kennedy: If it is a trial——

[219] Mr. Magner: I am happy to occupy the opposite side to Senator O'Kennedy on any issue.

Mr. O'Kennedy: That reassures me as well.

Mr. Magner: Senator Dardis referred to the report of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security. The report and the future operation of inquiries of that type should be discussed in this House. The cost involved was minuscule in comparison to the beef tribunal and should be the standard for future Dáil inquiries.

There was a request made by a Senator — I forget by whom — for a debate on the banking industry. If a 28 year old yuppie — as happened in the Barings Bank case — can affect the British and Irish economies——

An Cathaoirleach: I am sure the Leader will take on board a request for a debate on the banking industry.

Mr. Magner: ——it behoves us to look at how our banks are governed and ask if we have any of these whizz kids playing with our money?

An Cathaoirleach: I hope they are not in the Bank of Ireland or I am in trouble.

Mr. Wright: The Minister for Finance.

(Interruptions.)

An Cathaoirleach: Before calling Senator Farrelly, can Members please ask appropriate questions on the Order of Business? What has been said here by most Senators would be totally suitable either for Private Members' motions or matters on the Adjournment.

Mr. Farrelly: Can the Leader of the House confirm that the Arterial Drainage (Amendment) Bill, 1995, will be guillotined tomorrow and that that will prohibit Members from speaking on it? [220] Is that the suggestion made by the Leader of the Opposition?

An Cathaoirleach: The Leader will reply. That is for tomorrow's Order of Business.

Mr. Farrelly: The thinking behind the new Opposition.

Mr. Wright: Do not worry, we will give the Senator the time tomorrow, and Friday if he wants.

Mr. Farrelly: There will be two chances, of that happening. Would the Leader ascertain from the Minister for Social Welfare in view of the precedent set by section 213 of the Social Welfare Act, 1981, where people in the Dodder Valley and in the Bray area were given immediate cash and compensation assistance as a result of a natural disaster, if section 182 of the Social Welfare (Consolidation) Act, 1993, could facilitate payments to 19 people who have been forced out of their homes in south Galway for the past five weeks and who will be so for the next 12 weeks at least?

Mr. Manning: The point made by Senator Wright about the Arterial Drainage (Amendment) Bill, 1995. anticipates tomorrow's business, so I do not want to deal with it now. I am surprised, indeed shocked, to see proposals for the curtailment — I would not use the word guillotine, it was never used in the old regime — of time proposed for a Bill. When this Bill was introduced, I said I would give it a reasonable amount of time to be dealt with and I intend to do that. I do not intend to break with precedent.

The business for this week was agreed at the end of last week and there were no objections or counter-proposals. I intend to stick to the business ordered for this week and if the Bill is completed, well and good; if not, I will make time available next week. I have no desire to see this Bill either stonewalled or debated for longer than is necessary. [221] It is an important Bill and we are doing the Opposition a courtesy by taking it seriously and allowing time for a full debate. I hope there will be no talk of guillotines or unseemly motions of this nature tomorrow.

As regards the Price Waterhouse report on the Defence Forces, the Minister for Defence, Deputy Coveney, has made a number of statements clarifying aspects of it. He will be in the House next week in his capacity as Minister for the Marine, but Members may be able to ask him questions on defence. I will try to arrange a debate on defence matters as soon as possible.

Senator Dardis raised a question about the Select Committee on Legislation and Security. Early next week when the House establishes the new committees — I intend to allow time for a debate on them — there will be an opportunity to examine some of the technical questions arising from its report. It is a matter for Members if they want to discuss the contents of the report. I am not sure that any useful propose would be served by such a debate, but if Members believe it would be useful, we will do our best to make time available. The technical question can be discussed next week.

As regards Senator Maloney's point about the animal which he brought into the House, I will convey his feelings and those of a number of other Senators to Aer Lingus and the Department of Foreign Affairs. Senator O'Kennedy raised a point which has in part been dealt with by Senator Magner, namely, Senator Magner's status as a first class Whip of the Labour group, but not quite the leader. As far as I am concerned, Senator Magner spoke in an individual capacity outside the House, as he is entitled to do. It is not my function to bring this matter to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, but other Members may do so if they wish. I do not see that the matter warrants referral the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

[222] Mr. O'Kennedy: Because it is not the Leader's function; I understand that.

Mr. Manning: Senator Lydon referred to neutrality. Reports regarding developments in the EU are still on the Order Paper and neutrality could be debated then. Perhaps we could discuss Senator McGowan's motion on tourism after we have discussed his motion on the Border areas. Senator Henry raised some profound questions on biotechnology to which I do not know the answers. This matter, which I heard discussed this morning, warrants further debate. The matter raised by Senator Finneran would probably be better dealt with on the Adjournment and if he is not satisfied that the relevant information has been made available, we could then put it on the Order Paper.

I have learned in my short time here that it is always one's friends who ask difficult questions. Senator Cotter asked about the Road Traffic Act, 1993. I do not have the information he required, but I will try to find it and convey it to him. I would advise Senator Mulcahy to do his homework a little better. There was a debate on the drugs situation a few weeks ago; it was one of the first in this session. Perhaps it passed his notice.

Mr. Cotter: It is a pity his colleagues did not tell him.

Mr. Manning: I do not take seriously his remarks about the Minister for Justice, they were unworthy of him.

Mr. Mulcahy: Is the Minister afraid?

Mr. Manning: The Minister will be here in a moment and if the Senator wants to ask her any questions he is free to do so. Senator Lanigan raised the issues of boxing and health. I will convey his views to the Minister but I suspect the matter goes beyond the remit of the Minister for Health. His views on Pakistan were conveyed to the Department [223] of Foreign Affairs and I do not know what action has been taken.

Senator Kelleher raised the matter of accommodation; that issue is being addressed at present and, I hope, will be resolved shortly. In reply to Senator Honan I cannot anticipate the Government's Bill on the matter referred to, and I suggest she wait until the Bill is published and if it does not meet her criteria she could raise the matter then.

Senator Magner raised the matter of the Select Committee on Legislation and Security and I have dealt with that. If a number of Senators want a full discussion on banking, perhaps they would get together, put down a motion and we will try to make time for it.

Mr. O'Kennedy: I might even agree with Senator Magner on that. He might be surprised.

Mr. Manning: Senator Fahey raised a matter to which I do not have the answer just now. I will bring it to the Minister's attention and it can be fully addressed in the debate this evening and tomorrow.

An Cathaoirleach: Is the Order of Business agreed?

Mr. O'Kennedy: Arising from what the Leader said——

An Cathaoirleach: Sorry, Senator, the Leader has replied.

Mr. O'Kennedy: In your capacity as Chairman of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges——

An Cathaoirleach: The Leader has replied. I will make up my mind on that issue in due course.

Mr. O'Kennedy: I want to ask you, formally——

An Cathaoirleach: In due course I will make up mind.

[224] Mr. O'Kennedy: ——in view of the fact that there has been an attack on the independence of the Judiciary and that it has been said——

An Cathaoirleach: Senator O'Kennedy please resume your seat.

Mr. O'Kennedy: ——that a judge is unfit for office——

An Cathaoirleach: Please resume your seat Senator O'Kennedy. Will you resume your seat?

Mr. O'Kennedy: I will on the understanding that you will act in your capacity as Chairman.

An Cathaoirleach: I will do my job; you do your job.

Mr. O'Kennedy: I am happy to hear that.

An Cathaoirleach: Thank you.

Order of Business agreed to.

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