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Seanad Éireann - Volume 124 - 28 February, 1990 Order of Business. Mr. Lanigan Mr. Lanigan Mr. Lanigan: It is intended that we take Item No. 1 from the completion of the Order of Business to 6.30 p.m., that we take Item No. 82 from 6.30 p.m. to 8 p.m. and that we sit tomorrow morning and take Item No. 2. Mrs. Doyle Mrs. Doyle 215 [215] Mrs. Doyle: May I ask the Leader of the House whether the matter I raised last week in relation to the European Court judgment of last October was discussed by the Whips as promised to me by the Acting Leader of the House at that time? May I also ask the Leader of the Houe if he would consider, please, for the Order Paper next week a debate all day next Thursday on the storm and flood damage in our country? It is past the stage of being dealt with at Private Members' Time, in any party's Private Members' Time, and I would like consideration of such a debate. Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole: We had a debate here some time recently on the Middle East. There have been a lot of developments in that area in the meantime, particularly the present question of the resettlement of Soviet Jews in the occupied territories. I ask the Leader of the House to consider whether it would now be appropriate to have a further debate in that area. I would wish to hear his views on it. On the Order of Business recently, the Acting Leader of the House made a point about the difficulty of agreement at Whips meetings. I would like to make the point to the Leader of the House that I am not attending Whips meetings at the moment because I was seriously misrepresented at a recent Whips meeting on the matter of the setting up of committees. It becomes impossible to have a proper ordering of business—— An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: That is a matter for outside this House. Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole: I sat here last week while the Acting Leader of the House made a five minute speech on this issue. It was not ruled out of order. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: I am telling you that you will be ruled out of order in a moment unless you keep to the business as prescribed. Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole: May I ask you a simple question? An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach 216 [216] An Cathaoirleach: You will not ask me any question. I am telling you now that you will address yourself to the matter before the House. Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole: I will also make a point, a Chathaoirligh. There is no way that I will be treated in this cavalier fashion by the Chair. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: You are challenging the Chair, Senator. Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole: Precisely. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: I want to point out to you that I am having quite a considerable amount of difficulty from one quarter in this House. In the interests of all Senators in the House I will not continue to tolerate that and you should know this already. You have many opportunities to discuss the matter with me and you are very well aware of my intentions. If you want to be the person who will break the rule, then you will pay for it. Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole: I am quite aware that anybody who breaks the rules will pay for it. I do not see why I should be singled out. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: You are not being singled out, Senator. The position is being pointed out to you. Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole: The position is that I sat here last week while an issue was raised. I tried to raise it and you made the point to me that there was no reply on the Order of Business. I accepted your ruling. I waited until this week to make the point which I had to sit and listen to last week about agreement at Whips meetings. I am now being deprived of that opportunity. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: Senator, the matter of Whips meetings is a matter for the Whips and it should not be a subject of discussion here at this time. (Interruptions.) An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach 217 [217] An Cathaoirleach: Some of your colleagues should restrain themselves while you attempt to make a point to me. Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole: I accept that ruling and I have always accepted the ruling that Whips' meetings are not a matter for the Order of Business. What I find astonishing is that the Acting Leader of the House last week was allowed to have at least five minutes of a discussion on matters that should have been arranged and agreed at the Whips meetings. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: I have explained the situation to the Senator. He should either get back to the Order of the House or resume his seat. Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole Mr. O'Toole: On the issue of the Business of the House, I also raised the matter of the investigation of allegations being made against a member of my group recently and I wish for a response to that matter which I raised last week. Mr. O'Reilly Mr. O'Reilly Mr. O'Reilly: I would like to strongly support the call by Senator Doyle that we have an all-day debate next Thursday on the storm damage. Our abhorrence of the statement of the Minister, Deputy Kirk, today when he said that there was not a problem should go on the record of the House. Dr. Upton Dr. Upton Dr. Upton: I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business. I want to propose that Item No. 81 be taken as the first item. Item No. 81 refers to the provision of a proper assessment and therapeutic unit for girls with severe behavioural disorders. This matter has been discussed in practically every other forum except the Seanad and it is now high time that we discussed it. There are quite a number of things to be said in relation to what the Minister announced yesterday, particularly the fact that he did not set any timescale for the provision of the services which he announced. Mrs. Jackman Mrs. Jackman 218 Mrs. Jackman: I wish to support Senator Upton in his plea for the establishment of the long-awaited detention [218] centre and also to express dissatisfaction about the discrimination against women where the over-16 year old female is not being facilitated in terms of a detention centre unlike her male counterpart who can be detained in St. Patrick's Institute. I support Senator Upton on the point he made. Mr. Costello Mr. Costello Mr. Costello: I wish to second the amendment from my colleague, Senator Upton, in relation to the provision of accommodation and treatment facilities. It is a matter that has been dealt with in just about every single forum in the country, except this forum. Indeed, it was debated yesterday in the Dáil even though we were told the matter was sub judice. Matters relating to it could not be debated in this forum and that is a scandalous situation. It was raised here first but we did not debate it. It is typical of what has been happening. We seem to be kowtowing to the Dáil and we are afraid to take on controversial issues even though they are highly relevant. Secondly, I would like to say that the statement from the Minister is entirely pertinent and that is one—— An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is departing from the area of the specific business. Mr. Costello Mr. Costello Mr. Costello: I was merely stating that that was one of the reasons we should discuss it now. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: The Senator gave the reasons. That suffices and there is no necessity to make a speech. Mr. Costello Mr. Costello Mr. Costello: I was seconding the amendment and in doing so I wanted to give a reason why it was particularly important that it be discussed now because a statement has been made by the Minister for Justice—— An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: You cannot continue, Senator. Mr. Costello Mr. Costello 219 Mr. Costello: I believe that was a ludicrous decision by the Minister for Justice [219] in relation to his provisional state-ment—— An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: You cannot continue, Senator, in that vein. Pól Ó Foighil Pól Ó Foighil Pól Ó Foighil: Ba mhaith liom a fhiafraí den Chathaoirleach arís an mbeidh cruinniú den Choiste Imeachtaí agus Pribhléidí anocht agus, má bhíonn, an ardóidh sé ceist faoin chóras aistriúcháin ag an gcoiste anocht? Chomh maith leis sin, an mbeidh sé in ann teacht ar ais chugainn amárach agus inseacht dúinn cén dáta a bheidh socraithe leis an gcóras aistriúcháin a insealbhú? Mr. Norris Mr. Norris Mr. Norris: I represent one of the groups who are most serious about the Order of Business in this House. They take it very seriously, and they take the dignity of this House very seriously indeed. I would like, therefore, to invite you, Sir, to withdraw the offensive and disparaging remarks—— An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: Resume your seat and for the same reason I have explained to others. You are not being helpful in this regard. You are out of order now and unless you resume your seat I will request you in another way to do so. Mr. Norris Mr. Norris Mr. Norris: I have an amendment to the Order of Business. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: Then move your amendment. Mr. Norris Mr. Norris Mr. Norris: That is what I am doing. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: Well, you have digressed from what that was, I presume, your intention originally. Mr. Norris Mr. Norris Mr. Norris: Because of comments which you made, Sir. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: The comments I made are in accordance with my function here as Cathaoirleach and you have no right to question them. Mr. Norris Mr. Norris 220 [220] Mr. Norris: If you impugn the honour of an entire group, surely they must be allowed the right—— An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: Senator, I am not going to engage in banter with you. Do you wish to move your amendment? Mr. Norris Mr. Norris Mr. Norris: I wish to move my amendment but, before I do so, I wish to mention another item, namely, Item No. 32, and to ask if in the light of the bombing of Newry railway station last weekend and of the continued bomb threats, the Leader of the House will consider facilitating the House with an all-party motion on the threat to the disruption of the rail services connecting the north and south of this island. I believe it would be noncontroversial and I think it would be helpful. I would like also to move an amendment in the light of the continuing total flagrant contempt of the European Court ruling, that Item No. 30 regarding the European Court judgment, now 18 months old, be taken today as Item No. 1 of business. Professor Murphy Professor Murphy Professor Murphy: I would like to support Senator Norris' proposed amendment to the Order of Business. I think it is monstrous that the Government should show such contempt for the European Court of Human Rights by continuing to evade its obligations in this regard. I am supporting Senator Norris and I do so gladly, as an inveterate heterosexual, I may add. I must also support Senator Norris in the feeling I have that your remarks about protest from this quarter and Senator O'Toole's colleagues—— An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: Senator, you are proceeding to be out of order. Professor Murphy Professor Murphy Professor Murphy: ——were offens-ive—— An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: Senator, I must ask you to desist. Mrs. Doyle Mrs. Doyle 221 Mrs. Doyle: In response to the point [221] that was raised by Senator Upton and the challenging of the Order of Business, we thoroughly support the point he made. I think he had a request to have a debate on the Adjournment today which was not successful. Conscious that Senator Harte was at the Whips meeting last Thursday when the order of today's business was agreed, I ask if perhaps the Leader of the House would consider slotting in Item No. 81 as the first item tomorrow morning before the proceedings that you mentioned here today. We want orderly proceedings and I am just suggesting that perhaps this is a way to deal with the critical issue that has been raised and still be orderly. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: The Leader of the House to reply. Mr. Lanigan Mr. Lanigan Mr. Lanigan: A number of matters have been raised and I will first take the last one. That item can be taken under Standing Order 29 if the Cathaoirleach agrees that it be taken as a special item. If not, it can be taken as an urgent debate in Private Members' time and I think the Labour Party are the next group who will be able to avail of that. However, in view of the support that has been given for that debate, I will refer the matter to the Government and see what response can be got from them. With regard to Item No. 32 raised by Senator Norris on the bombing of Newry rail station and the need for a debate on that, I do not see that there should be any difficulty in arranging a debate on that matter and on the detrimental effect to life and commerce throughout our country. Again, I am not going to give a date for that but I do not foresee that there should be any difficulty in having an early debate and I will look for support for that. 222 I dtaobh na ceiste a bhí agam ón Seanadóir Pól Ó Foighil, nílim in ann freagra a thabhairt air. Tá an córas aistriúcháin á phlé le míonna anuas sa Teach seo agus sa Teach eile, agus i mórán áiteanna eile. Nuair a bheidh an freagra ceart agam don Seanadóir, beidh mé ríshásta, [222] agus tá súil agam go mbeidh seisean ríshásta ina thaobh sin freisin. I would say to Senator Costello that we have never been afraid in this House to take matters of controversy. We have done so on numerous occasions. In my time as Leader of the House and during the time of my predecessors we have addressed controversial matters. There has never been an attitude in this House that we were not able and willing to take on matters of controversy. I am not accepting the amendment to the Order of Business. Senator Jackman supported Senator Upton. The same reply applies. Senator O'Reilly and other Senators raised the question of storm damage. Obviously storm damage and what is happening all over the country is a matter of concern. I will raise that matter with the Government to see when we can have a full debate on it. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges are meeting on various things. With regard to Senator O'Toole's reference to difficulties with the Whips, I suggest that he should meet the Government Whip immediately after the Order of Business to discuss this matter and see if there can be a resolution of the problem. With regard to a debate on the resettlement of Soviet Jews in the occupied territories, I had a meeting with members of the Supreme Soviet last week on this matter and I will relay their attitude towards it. I know the attitude of various other people and if I relay to Senator O'Toole the views of the Supreme Soviet on this particular problem, then we can decide when it might be appropriate to have a further debate on the Middle East. There are some Members of this Chamber who would suggest we have had too many debates on the Middle East. Nevertheless, if there is a need for an urgent discussion on matters such as that we can come back again. The Minister has no problem with that. 223 On the matter of the European Court judgment, I believe the matter was not raised at the Whips meeting. I am not too sure why it was not raised: possibly it was forgotten. We are not taking that [223] item today but I will ask the Government when they will be taking steps as a result of the European Court judgment. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach 224 An Cathaoirleach: I have two amendments to the Order of Business. One in the name of Senator Upton proposes: [224] “That Item No. 12, Motion No. 81, be inserted before Item No. 1.” Is the amendment being pressed? Dr. Upton Dr. Upton Dr. Upton: Yes. Amendment put. The Seanad divided: Tá, 9; Níl, 24. Tá
Níl
Tellers: Tá, Senators Upton and Costello; Níl, Senators McGowan and Wright. Amendment declared lost. An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: The second amendment is in the name of Senator Norris, who has moved an amendment to the Order of Business, “That Item No. 12, Motion 30, be inserted before Item No. 11. Is the amendment being pressed? Mr. Norris Mr. Norris Mr. Norris: Yes. Amendment put. The Seanad divided: Tá, 7; Níl, 21. Tá
Níl
Tellers: Tá, Senator Norris and Murphy; Níl, Senators McGowan and Wright. Amendment declared lost. Order of Business agreed to. Seanad Éireann 124 Order of Business. General Debate 19900228
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