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Dáil Éireann - Volume 520 - 08 June, 2000

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach: The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. a16, Technical Motion re Further Revised Estimate [Vote 30] (referral to Committee); No. 3, Town Renewal Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage and No. 39, Electronic Commerce Bill, 2000 [Seanad] – Second Stage (resumed) to be taken not later than immediately following the announcement of matters on the Adjournment under Standing Order 21 and the order shall resume thereafter. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders or the Order of the Dáil of 7 June, that No. a16 shall be taken immediately before Private Members' business and shall be decided without debate and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith. Private Members' business shall be No. 94, Motion re Education: Literacy and Numeracy (resumed) to be taken directly after the Order of Business and No. a16 and to conclude after 90 minutes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: There is one proposal to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. a16 agreed to?

Mrs. Owen: From the way it is printed on the Taoiseach's programme it appears that No. a16 is to be taken at the same time as Private Members' business and is to conclude after 90 minutes. I understood that No. a16 would be dealt with before the commencement of Private Members' business. Is that the position?

The Taoiseach: That is correct.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is that agreed? Agreed. I call Deputy Owen on the Order of Business.

Mrs. Owen: Yesterday on Question Time the Taoiseach outlined the arrangements his Government had with the four Independent Deputies who support the Government. In view of the fact that Deputy Lawlor has resigned from Fianna Fáil, will he indicate if the same arrangement has been entered into with Deputy Lawlor to give him the same supports as the Independent [1170] Deputies? Perhaps the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Séamus Brennan, might have something to say on that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That is not relevant to the Order of Business. I call Deputy Howlin.

Mrs. Owen: It is important because the Government's support is hanging by a thread.

Mr. M. Smith: We won a vote last night by a majority of 20.

Mr. Finucane: The crèche is filling up.

Mr. Howlin: On the question of promised legislation—

Mr. Boylan: Will Deputy Healy-Rae be taking over as Tánaiste?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Allow Deputy Howlin to continue.

(Interruptions.)

Mrs. Owen: Will the Taoiseach answer my question?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Owen, you are out of order.

Mrs. Owen: It is very important.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: It should be submitted as a parliamentary question.

Mr. Howlin: At a time when the country is aghast—

Mr. M. Brennan: The Government is well supported.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Howlin, without interruption.

Mr. Howlin: It is clear we have a job to do to restore confidence in this House. Some of the attitudes from the Government benches are doing nothing to help. On the question of legislation that might begin the process of restoring public confidence, a swathe of legislation has been published by my party and the Government. Yesterday on the Order of Business the Taoiseach informed me that the Prevention of Corruption (Amendment) Bill was ordered to be taken next week. Last Thursday, in answer to the same question, he told me the Bill would be taken in the autumn. I understand next week's business has been agreed by the Whips, but no Prevention of Corruption (Amendment) Bill has been listed. There is an urgency about this legislation.

[1171]

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy, you have made you point. I call on the Taoiseach to respond.

Mr. Howlin: I also wish to refer to related legislation. In view of yesterday's report and the fall-out from it, it is incumbent on the Taoiseach to immediately bring that legislation to this House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That does not arise on the Order of Business. I will hear the Taoiseach on the promised legislation.

The Taoiseach: On promised legislation, Deputy Howlin has raised two issues. I told him yesterday that I understood the Whips had ordered the corruption Bill for next week. This morning I understand they have ordered it for 22 June.

Mr. Barrett: It has not been ordered. There has been no agreement on that.

The Taoiseach: It is tentatively scheduled for 22 June.

Dr. Woods: We need the Opposition's co-operation.

The Taoiseach: The Chief Whip cannot agree the legislation ordered for the House without discussion.

Mr. Barrett: It was not mentioned. There was no discussion on it.

The Taoiseach: It is tentatively listed for 22 June. Deputy Howlin said a number of measures were needed to restore credibility to this situation. I again ask him to respond to my request on 18 May for the establishment with immediate effect of an all-party committee to consider the legislative proposals relating to the funding of political activity, both between and during elections, namely, the Standards in Public Office Bill, the Registration of Lobbyists (No. 2) Bill—

Mr. Howlin: Our legislation.

The Taoiseach: —the Electoral Amendment (Donations to Parties and Candidates) Bill—

Mr. Howlin: Our legislation.

The Taoiseach: —the Public Representatives (Provision of Tax Certificates) Bill, the Prevention of Corruption Bill – there are three Bills in that area, one from Fine Gael, one from the Labour Party and a Government Bill – and the Local Government Bill, 2000, and any other measures that may be necessary to prevent corruption in public office. I also asked that the committee consider such measures as may be necessary to provide for the statutory regulation of lobbyists and lobbying activities and for the protection of whistleblowers and such related mat[1172] ters as the committee may deem appropriate. I also proposed that an expert group be established in consultation with the party leaders to assist and advise the all-party committee. The Fine Gael Party responded by saying it would be involved, but the Labour Party will still not be involved. I wish it would make up its mind on this issue.

Mr. Howlin: Charges were made directly at me so I should be allowed to answer them. The Labour Party will not be involved in any procedure that buries these issues.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I point out to the Deputy that the issue he raised originally was out of order.

Mr. Howlin: The Taoiseach last week told the House that the provisions he allowed to be voted through the House were unconstitutional. I challenge him to publish that constitutional advice.

Dr. Woods: The Deputy's party should co-operate with everybody else.

Mr. Howlin: The Taoiseach should not be allowed to make charges to try to obfuscate the situation and put up a smokescreen. It is time now for action—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I call Deputy Owen.

Mr. Howlin: —and this action must come from the Government. It was elected to take leadership on this issue, not simply to provide smokescreens on inaction.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Deputy Howlin was in order to ask a question on legislation. The question was answered and I am calling Deputy Owen.

Mr. Howlin: We will not be part of the smokescreen operation and that is a clear answer.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe: The most decisive action the Government could take would be to resign.

Mrs. Owen: There is a need for clarity on the exact status of the Standards in Public Office Bill which the Taoiseach said last week would be published before the end of the session. There are only three weeks remaining in this session. What is the exact position on the Government's anti-corruption legislation?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: A question on promised legislation, please Deputy.

Mrs. Owen: The Opposition Whips clearly do not know anything about it. It has not been discussed. Does the Government propose to amend the Freedom of Information Act given the commissioners' report which stated that there is anecdotal evidence—

[1173] An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is there promised legislation?

Mrs. Owen: —that officials are not writing anything down any more in case it is sought under the Act and that there are long delays in having requests for information handled in Departments? Is there a need for new legislation in this area? I also ask the Taoiseach to outline the position regarding the Standards in Public Office Bill and the Government's anti-corruption legislation.

The Taoiseach: The Standards in Public Office will be published this session. The anti-corruption Bill is tentatively listed for 22 June. As I stated, this must be agreed with the Whips.

Mrs. Owen: Has it been published?

The Taoiseach: There are no proposed amendments at this stage to the Freedom of Information Act.

Mrs. Owen: Is the Taoiseach concerned about the allegation that people are not writing things down?

The Taoiseach: I would be.

Mr. Higgins (Mayo): Yesterday the Garda announced that all holders of firearms certificates must from 1 July, which is only two weeks away, have a steel cabinet bolted to a wall if they are to continue to hold firearms in the future. Under what legislation is this change being introduced? Is it being done by Garda or Government diktat?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That matter is more appropriate to a parliamentary question.

Mr. Shatter: Will the Taoiseach bolt down members of the Fianna Fáil Party sitting behind him?

Mr. Higgins (Mayo): In the context of the legislation, does this mean that all elderly people living in rural Ireland must now buy such a cabinet?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is out of order. I call Deputy Sargent.

Mr. Higgins (Mayo): It is not out of order.

Mr. Enright: It is very much in order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: It is out of order. It is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins (Mayo): Does it mean that anybody who has a shotgun must now give it up—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: It is not in order on the Order of Business and Deputy Enright knows it. It is appropriate to a parliamentary question.

[1174] Mr. Barrett: One should get a shotgun with one's pension book.

Mr. Higgins (Mayo): In the context of legislation, what is the position regarding the Firearms Bill, which was one of the Bills promised for—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: It is not appropriate to discuss the contents of legislation on the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins (Mayo): The Firearms Bill is pertinent. It is relevant.

The Taoiseach: The Non-Residents Firearms Certificates Bill is due this session. Its purpose is to give effect to the recommendations of the report of the firearms legislative review group.

Mr. Higgins (Mayo): Does it mean that a person who has a shotgun will have to give it up unless he or she buys a steel case for it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: It is not appropriate to discuss the contents of legislation on the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach: The Deputy should table a parliamentary question.

Mr. Higgins (Mayo): Now that the FBI has come to and gone from Abbeylara, what is the situation in relation to the report? Will it be available before the Dáil adjourns for the summer recess?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That is not appropriate to the Order of Business. The Deputy will have to find another way of raising the matter.

Mr. Higgins (Mayo): It is very important from the point of view of public confidence.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is being disorderly. I call Deputy Sargent.

Mr. Higgins (Mayo): Will we have the report on Abbeylara before the Dáil goes into recess?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I have called Deputy Sargent. Deputy Higgins's point is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Barrett: With respect, it is appropriate.

Mr. Higgins (Mayo): It is appropriate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: It is not. It is appropriate to a parliamentary question or it can be raised on the Adjournment. However, it cannot be raised on the Order of Business.

Mr. Stagg: It is being discussed so it is appropriate.

Mr. Kenny: It is shotgun legislation.

[1175] An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Standing Order 26 is very specific.

Mr. Stagg: When the Chair wants it to be.

Mr. Sargent: I am reluctant to interrupt points about the firearms issue. However, regarding the list of legislation the Taoiseach outlined, which is aimed at restoring credibility and confidence in the political system, will he note that the Green Party also wants a ban on private and corporate donations and a limit on spending between elections in addition to during election campaigns?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: A question appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Sargent: A Bill was promised but it was not mentioned on the list. Will the Bill relating to dormant accounts from the Department of Finance be relevant in restoring credibility given the large amount of money which appears to have been given but for which there was no account?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy is out of order.

Mr. Sargent: The dormant accounts Bill is promised. Is it relevant in terms of its contribution to restoring confidence?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Deputy's point got lost in his Second Stage speech.

The Taoiseach: The heads of the Bill relating to dormant accounts are expected this month and the legislation is due in the autumn.

Mr. Howlin: Last Thursday the Taoiseach informed me that he had a constitutional imperative he could not ignore in relation to the Bill on banning corporate donations. Since Second Stage of that measure is due to be completed by vote of the House in December, will the Taoiseach publish that legal advice?

The Taoiseach: As the Deputy is aware, the advice of the Attorney General is not published.

Mr. Howlin: There are many precedents.

The Taoiseach: However, the interpretation he gave is the same as the interpretation made by a number of constitutional lawyers in the past week.

Mr. Howlin: In relation to that matter—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We are not having a discussion on the matter. I call Deputy Finucane.

Mr. Howlin: It would be of great help to all of us in addressing a very difficult issue if the advice the Taoiseach quoted was put into the public domain.

[1176] An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We cannot have a discussion on the matter. I called Deputy Finucane.

Mr. Howlin: There are ample precedents for such a move. He could even communicate with the spokespersons.

The Taoiseach: The Attorney General attended the meeting between the party leaders and gave that advice.

Mr. Howlin: No written advice was given to the party leaders.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: We are not having a debate on the matter.

Mr. Howlin: The Taoiseach is digging a bigger hole for himself.

The Taoiseach: We agreed to co-operate with all the parties.

Mr. Howlin: The Government agreed to it early.

The Taoiseach: It will all be done by Christmas. We have lost three weeks already.

Mr. Stagg: Keep in touch.

Mr. Finucane: What is the status of the legislation to control acts of piracy at sea and to enable the Naval Service to board vessels outside the 12 mile limit?

The Taoiseach: The Harbours (Amendment) Bill—

Mr. Finucane: It has nothing to do with it.

The Taoiseach: The heads of the Law of the Sea (Prevention of Acts of Piracy) Bill are expected in the middle of this year. Work is in progress. The legislation will provide for the implementation of piracy provisions under Irish law. The legislation is due in the autumn.

Mr. Enright: A good few have gone overboard.

Mr. Higgins (Dublin West): The Taoiseach said on the Order of Business on a number of occasions that the report of the Commission on Private Rented Accommodation would be published in early June. The most grotesque exploitation by landlords of people dependent on them continues. There is rack renting and exploitation is out of control.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: A question appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins (Dublin West): With only three weeks to the end of the session, when will the commission report and when will there be time for a debate on it, which is crucial? Will the Taoi[1177] seach give a guarantee and ensure that the Garda report into the tragic death of John Carthy will be published and debated in the House before the recess because of the public disquiet about this tragedy?

The Taoiseach: The chairman of the rent review group asked for a month's extension which the Minister of State granted. This brings the date to July. The extension was given at his request.

Mrs. Owen: What about the Abbeylara report?

Mr. Higgins (Dublin West): The second matter deserves to be answered.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: It is not appropriate to the Order of Business. The Deputy will have to find another way of raising it.

The Taoiseach: If questions are tabled, they will be answered.

Mr. Currie: Given that the Betting and Lotteries Act is under review in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and a report is expected shortly, will the Taoiseach give an assurance that he will follow the lead of the previous Government and not introduce legislation which would legalise casinos?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Is legislation promised?

The Taoiseach: There is no legislation.

Mr. Currie: I want an assurance in relation to the introduction of casinos.

The Taoiseach: I ended that issue for the Deputy.

Mr. Currie: Under pressure.

The Taoiseach: On the day I sorted it out, the Deputy kindly took my statement and circulated it for me. I thank him for that. It helped him to get elected.

Mr. Currie: I pushed the Taoiseach into it. Our Government decided not to introduce legislation. Will the Taoiseach give a similar assurance that he will not introduce legislation now in view of what my constituency colleague had to say about the matter?

Mr. Shatter: Does the Taoiseach agree that losing one Deputy is a misfortune but losing a second starts to look like a habit? In the absence of Deputies Foley and Lawlor on the Independent benches, does the Taoiseach anticipate losing a third Deputy and does he now recognise the Government is incapable of progressing its legislative programme?

[1178] An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: That is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach: Deputy Shatter would know about that because he lost a Minister and a Minister of State when he was in power.

Mr. Shatter: Finally—

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: There is no “finally” about it, the Deputy is out of order. I call Deputy Barrett.

Mr. Shatter: Will the Taoiseach clarify whether the Progressive Democrats regards it as satisfactory that Deputies remain in the House as Government supporters having left the Fianna Fáil Party mainly because of Fianna Fáil voters?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. I call Deputy Barrett.

Mr. Barrett: Will the legislation to downgrade Clonmel and Kilkenny to town councils be taken before the recess?

The Taoiseach: There is no question of downgrading them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: I call Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Barrett: Excuse me, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but I am asking a question about legislation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: Can the Deputy name the legislation about which he is asking?

Mr. Barrett: Will the legislation to downgrade Kilkenny and Clonmel be taken before the summer recess?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle: The Taoiseach has answered that question. I call Deputy Gilmore.

Mr. Barrett: Deputy McGuinness is worried about the legislation.

Mr. Gilmore: The Government has indicated that legislation arising from the third report on housing by Peter Bacon will be introduced. When will the third Bacon report be published and will the legislation be published this term?

The Taoiseach: As the report has not been published yet, the Government has not considered it. When the report is published, the Government will consider it and make whatever decisions are necessary.

Mrs. Owen: Will that happen before the summer recess?

The Taoiseach: The Deputy must wait and see.

Mr. Crawford: Will the legislation that deals [1179] with drug barons be extended to include those who launder diesel? Does the Taoiseach believe there is a link between those who launder diesel and paramilitary organisations?

The Taoiseach: Adequate legislation already exists to deal with that serious issue.

Mr. McCormack: Will Second Stage of the Local Government Bill be taken in this Dáil or the new Dáil?

The Taoiseach: It will be taken in the next session.

Ms Coughlan: Will it be possible to introduce the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill to allow for the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources and the Minister to be advised of decisions made by A.Lab. and for them to be communicated to them accordingly?

Mr. Shatter: I get the whiff of an election in the air when Government backbenchers ask such questions.

The Taoiseach: The Fisheries (Amendment) Bill is due this session. The intention is to get it through the Houses in this session.

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