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Dáil Éireann - Volume 461 - 08 February, 1996

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach: It is proposed to take item No. 9.

Mr. B. Ahern: Will the Taoiseach give an assurance that the Fianna Fáil Bill passed by the House last night will not be buried but given a fair hearing in the Select Committee on Legislation and Security together with the long awaited but welcome Government Bill on drug trafficking? All the legal arguments made by the Government were clearly answered last night. A lot of work was put into the Bill and it was debated in the House for two weeks. I am asking that the Bill's provisions be incorporated in the Government's Bill.

The Taoiseach: This is the second or third time in recent days that Opposition parties have sought to raise matters appropriate to committees on the Order of Business in the plenary session of the Dáil. We have a good committee system that works well and should allow committee business to be dealt with in committee rather than on the floor of the House for point scoring purposes.

Mr. B. Ahern: I regret the attitude of the Taoiseach. The Government issued a Bill this morning which neither I nor [642] our spokesperson has read yet. We debated our Bill for the last two weeks. It has little to do with the committee but concerns the instruction which the Taoiseach will give to the members of the committee. The Taoiseach is refusing to answer that question. There is much public concern about crime in general. Will the Taoiseach indicate if the other ten items of legislation listed by the Government will be taken in this session and, if not, why not?

The Taoiseach: The attachment of earnings Bill is in the early stage of preparation. It will end imprisonment where practicable for civil debt and inability to pay fines. I am not able to say exactly when it will be introduced.

The criminal justice (miscellaneous provisions) Bill is designed to achieve savings in Garda time through changing procedures in criminal cases and implementing further changes in criminal procedure recommended by the interdepartmental group on the administration of justice and by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I expect that legislation to be introduced in the first half of this year.

The Minister is working on the criminal law Bill which will abolish the distinction between felonies and misdemeanours and change the categorisation of different types of imprisonment. I expect that Bill to be introduced either this month or next month. The criminal law insanity Bill will be introduced in the second half of this year and will amend the criminal law on insanity. The Minister is also working on criminal law legislation to give effect to the UN Convention against torture and other cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment. If we can do so, we will introduce that legislation in the first half of the year, but if not it will probably be in the second half. There is also legislation to implement the Europol Convention. There are difficulties with the arguments about jurisdiction in regard to the interpretation of the Convention as between the European Court and other courts. This legislation will be introduced about the middle of this year.

[643] The Minister is working on a number of other items, for example a Bill to index fines which will update the level of fines. This Bill is at an early stage of preparation and I am not in a position to say when it will be introduced. It is an important matter. The maximum level of fines is out of date and needs to be revised.

Preparation of the juvenile justice Bill is at an advanced stage of preparation. It deals with offences committed by children and involves a comprehensive revision of the Children Act, 1908. Demand for its revision has been made for about 20 years. I expect that legislation to be ready in the first half of this year. The House will agree the Minister has much work in hands involving a range of reforms of criminal law. That matter is being given very high priority by the Government because we regard the updating of our criminal law as important. It is also important that the House understand how comprehensive this programme is.

Mr. O'Malley: Will the Taoiseach arrange to lay before the House and circulate to Deputies written details of the proposals made yesterday by the Tánaiste to Sir Patrick Mayhew? It is important that these details be available to the House and the public. It is particularly disappointing that before they could have been fully known they were already rejected by a number of parties. They are particularly important because there lies the only hope of talks since the original proposal last November for talks by the end of February now seems a forlorn hope.

An Ceann Comhairle: Matters appertaining to Northern Ireland do not arise on the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach: I am happy to answer the question. I will arrange for a copy of the statement issued yesterday by the Tánaiste to be circulated to all Members. The proposal is a very practical one designed to enable us achieve [644] the objective set and agreed by the two Governments to launch talks by the end of this month. Given that there are only 21 days before that time elapses, the Government's proposal to bring all parties together in the one building for a two day period is the most practical available way of working intensively to resolve the differences that exist.

The Governments not only agreed on a joint firm aim of talks by the end of this month, we also agreed in the communiqué to work intensively in the political track towards that aim. The proposal by this Government to bring everybody together for a two day period flows directly from the communiqué in which there is an agreed commitment from both Governments to work intensively on this matter. There is no better proposal for working intensively in the time remaining than the one put forward by this Government to the British Government. I am very happy to respond to Deputy O'Malley's suggestion and to his implied support for what the Government is doing, by circulating to all Members a full copy of the Government statement issued yesterday.

Mr. B. Ahern: On the basis that there is considerable agreement in the House on matters relating to the communiqué, does the Taoiseach believe this is an appropriate time to have a debate on Northern Ireland, a debate I have been requesting since September last? The Taoiseach may not wish to issue the letter he sent to the British Prime Minister last Monday, but it is published in the British press today. Will he make available to the House his arguments in favour of the Government's proposals?

The Taoiseach: I do not propose to publish correspondence I had with the British Prime Minister.

Mr. B. Ahern: Perhaps the Taoiseach will publish the general content of it.

[645] The Taoiseach: That is not a particularly useful suggestion. It is much better that Heads of Government should communicate in a confidential fashion. The confidentiality of such communication should be maintained.

Mr. D. Ahern: It has been published in the British papers.

The Taoiseach: I do not propose to respond to that suggestion, but I am responding favourably to Deputy O'Malley's suggestion.

Mr. B. Ahern: Does the Taoiseach consider it appropriate that we have a debate in this House on Northern Ireland?

The Taoiseach: I will examine that suggestion taking into account the parliamentary timetable of other business and the views expressed by the Opposition in the matter.

Mr. J. Walsh: Motion No. 35 on yesterday's Order Paper states:

That Dáil Éireann, mindful of the statement made by the Minister for Social Welfare in the House on Tuesday, 23rd January, 1996, in answer to a Dáil Priority Question, calls on the Minister to retract his erroneous statement and correct the record of the House.

Will the Taoiseach devote Government time to discuss this very important matter?

An Ceann Comhairle: This matter has been raised on a number of occasions. The issue is before the House by way of substantive motion. It is also before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the House should await the outcome of deliberations in that respect. I will hear no more about the issue and Members should not raise it. It is before the House in a very formal way and Members will have an opportunity of utilising the time available for this purpose. In the meantime [646] there should be no reference to the matter.

Mr. Andrews: On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle: I fail to see how there can be a point of order on a statement from the Chair.

Mr. Andrews: On a point of information, you and I have been in this House for a very long time, maybe too long——

An Ceann Comhairle: Please, Deputy.

Mrs. Owen: That is a very good start.

Mr. Andrews: The Minister should not go down that route. The people are not very happy with her. There has been a practice that when a person misleads the House, deliberately or otherwise——

An Ceann Comhairle: Sorry, Deputy Andrews, I have ruled on the matter and you may not comment on it.

Mr. Andrews: The Minister should do the decent and honourable thing and apologise for misleading the House. There are standards in this House that are not being maintained.

An Ceann Comhairle: Doubtless the Deputy will be afforded an opportunity of speaking to the substantive motion when it comes before the House. In the meantime he should remain quiet in the matter.

Mr. Andrews: The Minister said there were no advertisements for the jobs concerned. There was clearly an indication that there were vacancies.

Mr. T. Kitt: I direct this question to you, a Cheann Comhairle. I think you will agree—you have said this on many occasions—the integrity of the House [647] is paramount and you are the guardian and custodian of that integrity.

An Ceann Comhairle: What is your point of order?

Mr. T. Kitt: If a Fianna Fáil Minister advertised in a Fianna Fáil magazine for five Government jobs and came into the House——

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Kitt is clearly trying to circumvent the ruling of the Chair. He should please desist and resume his seat.

Mr. T. Kitt: No, there is a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle: Resume your seat forthwith, Deputy Kitt.

Mr. T. Kitt: If a Fianna Fáil Minister——

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy should resume his seat, otherwise I will have to name him.

Mr. T. Kitt: I want to finish my point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle: No, you are completely out of order, Deputy Kitt. I am asking you for the last time to desist and resume your seat.

Mr. Andrews: On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy leaves me no option but to name him.

[648] Mr. T. Kitt: If a Fianna Fáil Minister——

An Ceann Comhairle: Is that what you want?

Mr. T. Kitt: I want to use my democratic right——

An Ceann Comhairle: I will give you one last chance to resume your seat.

Mr. T. Kitt: I do not wish to——

An Ceann Comhairle: I have no option but to name the Deputy. I now ask that Deputy Tom Kitt be suspended from the service of the House.

Mr. Andrews: This is outrageous. It is an unfortunate tactic.

An Ceann Comhairle: Order and decorum shall be maintained in this House.

Mr. Andrews: You are bullying the Deputy out of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle: How dare Deputy Andrews make such a remark?

Mr. Andrews: How can an Opposition operate if it does not get fair play from the Chair?

An Ceann Comhairle: I resent the Deputy's remarks.

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