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Dáil Éireann - Volume 434 - 14 October, 1993

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach: It is proposed to take No. 6. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: 1. business shall be interrupted not later than 4.45 p.m. today; 2. the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and adjourn not later than 4 p.m.; 3. the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the statements on No. 6, which shall take place today and tomorrow: (i) the opening statements of the Taoiseach and the main spokesperson for the Fine Gael Party, the Progressive Democrat Party and the Technical Group shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; (ii) the statement of each other Member called on shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; and (iii) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon not later than 3.40 p.m. on Friday to make a statement in reply not exceeding 20 minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle: Is the proposal on No. 1, that business be interrupted not later than 4.45 p.m. today, satisfactory? Agreed. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit tomorrow at 10.30 a.m. and adjourn not later than 4 p.m. satisfactory? Agreed. In respect of No. 3, are the proposals for dealing with No. 6 agreed?

[1110] Mr. J. Bruton: No, Sir, the Fine Gael Party does not agree that the National Development Plan should be dealt with by a series of statements with no conclusion by the Dáil at the end of the debate. We believe that a matter of such importance should be substantially approved, disapproved or amended by the Dáil if it is being debated here. The process of simply having statements denies the Dáil the opportunity of exercising any democratic decision on this issue and is contrary to the whole concept of parliamentary democracy and of subsidiarity and democratic involvement which underlies the European Community.

Miss Harney: I agree with the Leader of Fine Gael, Deputy Bruton. A debate such as this could be held in any debating society in the country. It is a farce. If we are to have parliamentary accountability, particularly in view of the fact that the Government has such a huge majority, we should have a meaningful debate here. By having statements, there will be no reply and no change. We are about to waste two days if we proceed by way of statements rather than by way of a motion.

Proinsias De Rossa: I, too, argue that the Dáil should have the opportunity of voting on the National Development Plan rather than simply making statements on it. I cannot see what the Government fears by way of a vote, given the enormous majority it has. If this House is to have any relevance as a democratic institution we should be enabled to vote on this Government proposal.

The Taoiseach: The Opposition sought a two day debate and they are getting a two day debate.

Deputies: A debate.

The Taoiseach: If sufficient time has not been made available for the debate the Opposition should say so. We could work late tomorrow evening if Deputies so wish. The Opposition asked for a [1111] debate prior to the production of the National Development Plan and that debate took place.

Mr. Dukes: We had to ballyrag you for weeks for that debate.

An Ceann Comhairle: Please, Deputy Dukes.

The Taoiseach: Interruptions will not get the Deputy into Deputy John Bruton's place no matter how hard he tries.

An Ceann Comhairle: When the Taoiseach rises to speak he should be heard without interruption.

Mr. Dukes: What are you so afraid of [1112] when you are all so in love with your partners over there?

Mr. Harte: May I ask the Taoiseach if this is a national plan or a Fianna Fáil-Labour plan?

An Ceann Comhairle: I am putting the question now.

Mr. Harte: Is it a national plan?

Mr. J. Bruton: They do not even trust their own backbenchers.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe: It is nothing but a Government ploy.

Question put: “That the proposals for dealing with No. 6 be agreed to”.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 67; Níl, 42.

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.

Ahern, Michael.

Ahern, Noel.

Andrews, David.

Aylward, Liam.

Bell, Michael.

Bree, Declan.

Briscoe, Ben.

Broughan, Tommy.

Browne, John (Wexford).

Burke, Raphael P.

Burton, Joan.

Byrne, Hugh.

Calley, Ivor.

Collins, Gerard.

Dempsey, Noel.

Doherty, Seán.

Ellis, John.

Ferris, Michael.

Fitzgerald, Brian.

Fitzgerald, Eithne.

Flood, Chris.

Foley, Denis.

Gallagher, Pat.

Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.

Haughey, Seán.

Higgins, Michael D.

Jacob, Joe.

Kemmy, Jim.

Kenneally, Brendan.

Kenny, Seán.

Kirk, Séamus.

Kitt, Michael P.

Kitt, Tom.

Lenihan, Brian.

Leonard, Jimmy.

Martin, Micheál.

McDaid, James.

McDowell, Derek.

Moffatt, Tom.

Morley, P.J.

Moynihan, Donal.

Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.

Nolan, M.J.

Ó Cuiv, Éamon.

O'Dea, Willie.

O'Donoghue, John.

O'Hanlon, Rory.

O'Keeffe, Batt.

O'Keeffe, Ned.

O'Leary, John.

O'Rourke, Mary.

O'Shea, Brian.

O'Sullivan, Gerry.

O'Sullivan, Toddy.

Power, Seán.

Reynolds, Albert.

Ryan, Eoin.

Shortall, Róisín.

Smith, Brendan.

Spring, Dick.

Stagg, Emmet.

Treacy, Noel.

Upton, Pat.

Wallace, Dan.

Walsh, Eamon.

Walsh, Joe.

[1113] [1114]

Níl

Allen, Bernard.

Barrett, Seán.

Barry, Peter.

Bradford, Paul.

Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).

Bruton, John.

Bruton, Richard.

Carey, Donal.

Clohessy, Peadar.

Cox, Pat.

Crawford, Seymour.

Currie, Austin.

Deasy, Austin.

Deenihan, Jimmy.

De Rossa, Proinsias.

Doyle, Avril.

Dukes, Alan M.

Durkan, Bernard J.

Fitzgerald, Frances.

Flaherty, Mary.

Gilmore, Eamon.

Harney, Mary.

Harte, Paddy.

Higgins, Jim.

Hogan, Philip.

Kenny, Enda.

Keogh, Helen.

Lowry, Michael.

McDowell, Michael.

McGinley, Dinny.

McManus, Liz.

Mitchell, Gay.

Mitchell, Jim.

Molloy, Robert.

Nealon, Ted.

Noonan, Michael.

(Limerick East).

O'Malley, Desmond J.

Owen, Nora.

Quill, Máirín.

Rabbitte, Pat.

Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Dempsey and Ferris; Níl, Deputies E. Kenny and Browne (Carlow-Kilkenny).

Question declared carried.

Mr. J. Bruton: On proposed legislation on air transport and the Aer Lingus equity injection, what is the Government's contingency plan if the reports that there is some difficulty in regard to the £175 million equity injection at EC level are true?

The Taoiseach: Deputy Bruton should not be too concerned about the approach of the EC in relation to that investment. They are following the normal procedure in having an investigation into this matter and affording the other parties the opportunity to make an input. I see no reason Aer Lingus should be treated differently by the EC to other national airlines.

Mr. J. Bruton: I am very glad to hear that.

Miss Harney: Will the Taoiseach, particularly in view of Mr. Adam's comments yesterday that peace is to be the end result rather than the beginning of the process, have a private briefing with the Leaders of the Opposition? I do not wish to have a debate on the issue because we do not know what is taking place but——

An Ceann Comhairle: It would not be in order as it was not in order yesterday.

Miss Harney: I am concerned that we would be negotiating with terrorists. Can I ask the Taoiseach to be generous——

An Ceann Comhairle: I am sorry, Deputy Harney. I can only refer you to yesterday's proceedings.

Miss Harney: That is not good enough. I am not seeking to be unreasonable. I am asking the Taoiseach if he will agree to a private meeting.

An Ceann Comhairle: There are other ways of raising the matter and I will facilitate the Deputy if possible.

Miss Harney: There are no other ways of doing so. Will the Taoiseach respond?

Mr. Barrett: He is a man of silence.

Miss Harney: Why is the Taoiseach [1115] silent? Does the Government intend to negotiate with terrorists?

Mr. Barrett: That is what is called open Government.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Chair must be obeyed in these matters.

Miss Harney: That is very unreasonable.

Proinsias De Rossa: On the Order of Business yesterday the Taoiseach indicated that he did not believe it was the right time to have a debate on Northern Ireland.

An Ceann Comhairle: I am not prepared to have a rehash of yesterday morning's proceedings.

Proinsias De Rossa: I am asking the Taoiseach who was good enough to respond to these requests yesterday, to indicate to the House at what point he believes a debate would be in order, particularly given the significant statement by Mr. Adams yesterday.

An Ceann Comhairle: I am sorry, Deputy, I cannot allow my ruling on this matter to be circumvented in this way. The matter will have to be raised in some other manner.

Proinsias De Rossa: On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy cannot raise a point of order on a point of disorder.

Mr. J. Bruton: That is a new one.

An Ceann Comhairle: It is not a new one.

Proinsias De Rossa: I will not get into that debate but I suggest to you, a Cheann Comhairle, that you were good enough to permit the Taoiseach to respond yesterday on this same issue and [1116] it would be in order to allow him respond to a reasonable request to indicate when a debate will take place in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle: I must ask the Deputy to desist.

Miss Harney: I wish to make a final appeal to the Taoiseach. This is a farce. In the national Parliament we are not being told anything. The Taoiseach will not even talk to us privately. That is not good enough.

An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot have this matter raised continuously every day.

Proinsias De Rossa: We are being muzzled.

The Taoiseach: It is irresponsible of Opposition Deputies who know we are involved in a very sensitive issue, where the general public are behind what we are trying to do, to play politics with a very difficult situation.

Miss Harney: We want a private briefing.

Mr. M. McDowell: The Taoiseach is doing what he did last year. He is not trustworthy on the issue.

An Ceann Comhairle: I will allow no further comment on the matter.

The Taoiseach: This is an appalling situation in an Irish Parliament when we are trying to solve a difficult problem.

An Ceann Comhairle: If Members wish to raise any other matter which is in order they may do so. Otherwise, I am proceeding to deal with the statements.

Deputy R. Bruton rose.

An Ceann Comhairle: I trust the Deputy heard the Chair and there will be no further reference to this matter.

Mr. R. Bruton: My comments are not related to this matter. Yesterday, the [1117] Taoiseach indicated that the Bill to provide privilege for witnesses called before Dáil committees is at an early stage of drafting. In view of the fact that he requested the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy to examine the Glackin report, will he introduce an Order in the Dáil permitting witnesses to be called by that committee?

An Ceann Comhairle: Is the Deputy referring to any specific legislation on the matter?

Mr. R. Bruton: This is a specific matter before the Dáil and committees cannot proceed until the Government give us the authority to call witnesses. Will the Taoiseach bring forward such a motion?

Mrs. Owen: It will amount to sweeping the matter under the carpert otherwise.

The Taoiseach: I said that this Bill is in the course of preparation and I have nothing further to add.

Mr. R. Bruton: The Taoiseach is deliberately misinterpreting my question.

An Ceann Comhairle: This matter should not lead to argument.

Mr. R. Bruton: The Taoiseach has misunderstood or chose to misunderstand my question.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy is arguing. I call Deputy Rabbitte.

Mr. Rabbitte: On promised legislation, may I ask the Taoiseach if the Government intend to persist with An Bord Bia Bill, thus further fragmenting Ireland's export drive, much to the chagrin of the Minister for Enterprise and Employment?

The Taoiseach: That item is No. 3 on the list circulated a week ago.

Mr. Rabbitte: I am aware of that. I am asking the Taoiseach if he intends to persist with it or if he intends to have [1118] regard to the views of the Minister for Enterprise and Employment?

The Taoiseach: The Deputy will appreciate that if we did not intend to proceed with this legislation we would not have included it on the list.

Mr. Allen: Following yesterday's meeting between the Taoiseach and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions it was reported that the social welfare cuts had been reversed. When will we receive details on that decision?

An Ceann Comhairle: That is not relevant.

The Taoiseach: That is not what was said.

Mr. J. O'Keeffe: More propaganda.

Ms McManus: Will the Taoiseach say if we can expect legislation on the issue of abortion? Does the Taoiseach support the proposal in the joint programme for Government in this regard in view of the reported comments of the chairman of the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists that the Taoiseach is taking a different position and favours a referendum.

The Taoiseach: There is no change in the position with regard to that subject. It is included in our Programme for Government. That is the position and it was responded to adequately in the newspaper report to which the Deputy referred.

Mr. M. McDowell: Does the Taoiseach favour a referendum?

Mr. J. O'Keeffe: Why has the Taoiseach refused twice to answer the question about a referendum?

Mr. Currie: The Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Deputy Stagg, promised that necessary housing legislation, consequent on the [1119] formation of three councils in Dublin, would be forthcoming.

When can we expect such legislation?

The Taoiseach: I will communicate with the Deputy in regard to the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle: I am now proceeding to Item No. 6.

Proinsias De Rossa: I waited until now, so that the Taoiseach could cool off, to make the point that I take grave exception to his intemperate response to a request for a debate on Northern Ireland.

An Ceann Comhairle: I am now proceeding to Item No. 6.

The Taoiseach: Like Deputy De Rossa, I do not intend to add to disorder by being disorderly myself.

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