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Dáil Éireann - Volume 372 - 14 May, 1987

Ceisteanna-Questions. Oral Answers. - Passenger Road Services Licensing.

2. Proinsias De Rossa asked the Minister for Tourism and Transport the measures, if any, he intends to take against bus operators who are running scheduled road passenger services without a licence; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

23. Miss Harney asked the Minister for Tourism and Transport the proposals, if any, he has to deregulate the operation of bus services.

35. Mr. Kavanagh asked the Minister for Tourism and Transport the proposals, if any, he has to take any action in relation to the number of persons engaged in carrying passengers in buses which are not licensed for commercial purposes, which are providing unfair competition to CIE and which are not subject to any [2021] control of standards; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Mr. Wilson: I propose to take Questions Nos. 2, 23 and 35 together.

The Road Transport Act, 1932, as amended, is the legislative base for the licensing of passenger road services operated by private bus operators.

Until recently the Garda were the sole enforcement authority for the purposes of the 1932 Act. However, in September, 1986, nine transport officers were appointed in accordance with the provisions of the Transport Act, 1986 for the purpose of enforcing, inter alia, the legislation relating to bus passenger licensing. The transport officers supplement enforcement by the Garda of the relevant regulations.

A review of the Road Transport Act, 1932 is now nearing completion. The outcome of that study will be the basis for policy decisions for the future and I expect to reach conclusions in the matter in the near future. Obviously, I cannot say at this stage what those conclusions will be. However, I can say that the study covers such questions as the scope for greater involvement of private operators in the provision of licensed services, the role of CIE and the level of penalties prescribed in the 1932 Act.

Tomás Mac Giolla: We are talking about unlicensed operators. Can the Minister say he is satisfied with the level of penalties for unlicensed private bus operators? Are the transport officers in his Department the body who impose the penalties? In a reply some time ago the previous Minister spoke about interdepartmental difficulties and said that an interdepartmental working party was engaged on this matter. Is the Minister now responsible for the enforcement of penalties on unlicensed operators? Is he satisfied with the level of penalties that can be imposed.

Mr. Wilson: As I indicated in my reply, one of the areas of study at present is the level of penalties prescribed in the 1932 [2022] Act. As the House realises, penalties laid down as long ago as 1932 must be unrealistic in 1987. The Garda are the enforcement authority but not the sole one because transport officers now supplement the actions of the Garda in this regard.

Mr. Cullen: The Minister indicated in his reply to the original question that he was hoping for greater involvement between the private bus companies and CIE. Is he indicating that perhaps we will see deregulation in the area of the bus services and the advent of the private bus companies working on the various routes in conjunction with CIE? Is that what he means by scope for greater involvement?

Mr. Wilson: As the Deputy heard, I mean that the review is taking place and that that is one of the areas which is being covered by the review.

Mr. Stagg: Is the Minister aware of the very poor working conditions of the people employed by the bus operators in many cases? Does he intend to bring in regulations to ensure there are proper working conditions for them and safety for passengers? I am referring particularly to what could loosely be described as cowboy operators in the private sector who are ripping off CIE.

Mr. Wilson: There are general laws and regulations covering employment and they apply to the people who work with private operators the same as the apply to every citizen. I am not aware of the position the Deputy refers to.

Mr. Kavanagh: The question down in my name which the Minister is answering asks whether he is taking any action in relation to the number of persons engaged in carrying passengers in buses which are not licensed for commercial use. Can he reply to that question? Has he a reply regarding the action or non-action in that area?

Mr. Wilson: The Deputy must not have been listening to my reply because the [2023] whole substance of my reply is about that. The Garda have responsibility to enforce the law in this regard and they are supplemented now by the transport officers appointed as a result of the passing of the Transport Act, 1986.

Mr. Cullen: Will the Minister not agree that many worthy private bus companies are operating at the moment in and outside this country who are providing a very good and necessary service?

Mr. Wilson: I notice a beautiful ideological orchestration of the opposite benches. I know there is a strong constitutency——

Mr. Kavanagh: In these benches.

Mr. Wilson: ——particularly among young people who favour private bus operators. I presume we will have to give our blessing to licensed private operators.

Mr. Deasy: These seems to be an extraordinary difference between Question No. 23 and the other two Questions Nos, 2 and 35. They seem to be quite contradictory. One is asking that private bus operators be prosecuted and Question No. 23 is asking for deregulation. When are the results of the study the Minister referred to in his reply expected to become available?

Mr. Wilson: I said it would be in the near future which, as I have said previously in this House, escapes absolute definition but I assure the House it is not a long-fingering phrase in this instance.

Mr. Deasy: I accept the Minister's words. When the Minister for Foreign Affairs said “in the very immediate future” on previous occasions in this House it amounted to years.

Mr. Wilson: Perhaps I can say the Minister for Foreign Affairs is more conversant with Einstein than I am.

Mr. Kavanagh: As I have said, my question related to buses which were not [2024] licensed. I did not refer to private buses but buses not licensed to carry passengers.

Mr. Wilson: Is the Deputy implying that CIE have unlicensed buses?

Mr. Kavanagh: I am referring to the fact that he seemed to think I was in some way against private buses. If private buses are licensed I have no question about them.

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