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Dáil Éireann - Volume 286 - 09 December, 1975

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Apprenticeship Statistics.

15. Mr. Leonard asked the Minister for Labour if it is proposed under the new training scheme for apprentices to have AnCO carry out the recruitment; or if the apprentices will be recruited by the employers, subject to conditions laid down by AnCO.

Mr. M. O'Leary: Under the new apprenticeship system recently announced, the recruitment of apprentices will continue, as at present, to be a matter primarily for employers, subject to adherence to conditions laid down by AnCO. However, as recruitment of apprentices by employers is unlikely to meet future total needs for skilled workers, particularly those of new industries, AnCO will also recruit apprentices with a view to meeting these additional requirements.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald: When will this new scheme come into operation?

Mr. M. O'Leary: We hope to start it next year.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald: Any date?

Mr. M. O'Leary: I think after the summer—September, probably.

16. Mr. Walsh asked the Minister for Labour the number of apprenticeships filled in all trades in the Dublin area this term.

Mr. M. O'Leary: The total number of first year apprentices registered in the designated trades in Dublin city and county on 31st October, 1975, was 467. This figure is expected [1065] to increase to about 1,000 by the end of the year as the intake of first-year apprentices usually takes place from September onwards, following the publication of the group and intermediate certificates examination results.

Mr. Walsh: Is the Minister in a position to say what the figure was this time last year?

Mr. M. O'Leary: I do not have the figure in this brief. I will arrange to let the Deputy have that information.

Mr. Walsh: In view of the limited number of vacancies available for apprentices, is the Minister in a position to arrange that the age limit for young people seeking apprenticeships would be extended? I think the age limit is 18 years. I am aware the number of vacancies for apprentices is very limited, so would the Minister arrange to have the age limit extended in the hope that there might be some more vacancies next year?

Mr. M. O'Leary: We have been considering that. I will communicate with the Deputy on that aspect.

Mr. Lemass: In reply to a question last Thursday we were told the AnCO school at Ballyfermot will not be extended. Has the Minister any plans for further AnCO training in Dublin?

Mr. M. O'Leary: We are considering various site options to arrange for further training centres in the area.

Mr. Lemass: Does the Minister foresee anything being done before next September?

Mr. M. O'Leary: Yes.

Mr. Tunney: Are the Minister's figures in connection with his projection for apprentices based on what might be regarded as the more healthy years in our economy? If not, on what are they based?

Mr. M. O'Leary: I presume it would be based——

Mr. Cunningham: Kicking for touch.

[1066] Mr. M. O'Leary: I am trying to give an honest answer to the question. I would assume it is based on the average in years past. I have the figure here but it does not give me the basis or the criterion.

Mr. Tunney: Would the Minister not agree it is not fair to be taking a figure from the top of his head? Many children are depending on the information the Minister gives here. Are we to take it that there is hope for them? He has said the figure might rise to one thousand. Is he aware there are vacancies for six hundred? Where will these children go to obtain one of these vacancies?

Mr. M. O'Leary: It is fair enough to make political points during a recession. I have given the material based on the question and the Deputy can rest assured that the material is based on an analysis of the situation, on as honest as possible a figure.

Mr. Faulkner: Does the Minister not agree that it is his duty to know the background to any figures he has?

An Ceann Comhairle: This is leading to argument.

Mr. Faulkner: It is not. A supplementary question has been asked here which it is not possible to answer because the Minister has not the information, although he has the figures. Surely he queried the officers of his Department about the background to these figures?

Mr. M. O'Leary: I can tell the Deputy that the amount of money available to the training authority has never been higher and that there were never so many in training in the country.

17. Mr. Walsh asked the Minister for Labour the number of apprentices in the Dublin area who have lost their employment this year and who have not completed their apprenticeship.

Mr. M. O'Leary: According to AnCO's latest figures the total number of apprentices to the designated trades notified as redundant or unemployed in Dublin city and county is [1067] 526. Of the total 191 are fifth-year apprentices.

It should be noted however that recent sample surveys by AnCO indicate that approximately 25 per cent of the apprentices notified to AnCO as being unemployed or redundant have been re-employed as apprentices.

Mr. Walsh: Is the Minister in a position to state that those who are unemployed will be in a position to keep their apprenticeships?

Mr. M. O'Leary: We are considering all means and ways to accommodate people who have exceeded the official age of intake. We are attempting to meet that by contingency arrangements. We have had many discussions with the training authority on the problem of unemployment as it affects apprentices, as it affects every other grade of employee.

Mr. Walsh: Is the Minister in a position to state the kind of discussions or negotiations he or the Department may have had with employers? Surely we should be beyond the stage where an apprentice would be taken on and dismissed after a short time?

Mr. M. O'Leary: This is a matter of great concern to the training authority who have been making numerous contacts with firms in an effort to keep apprentices at work.

Mr. Walsh: During the discussion earlier on the premium employment scheme we dealt with re-employment of people who had lost their jobs. Would apprentices not qualify for that scheme and could some encouragement be given to firms to retain apprentices in employment?

Mr. M. O'Leary: The scheme was not designed with apprentices in mind. It is really for full-time workers who have been let go during the recession. The Deputy asked a question about entry age for apprentices and I have promised to communicate with him giving him more details.

Mr. Moore: Deputy Walsh asked a question I was going to ask, but the [1068] Minister did not answer. He asked the Minister what representations he had made to employers not to sack apprentices. He went on to say what AnCO had done. Perhaps the Minister would tell us what he has done?

Mr. M. O'Leary: I can assure the Deputy that I have been in contact with many firms also. I think it more appropriate that I should state the correct statutory position, which is that the training authority are responsible for apprentices. If the Deputy wants me to start listing my own representations in this area, I am ready to supply him with them but I do not think that is quite appropriate.

An Ceann Comhairle: Next question, No. 18.

Mr. Walsh: The Minister will agree it is a very important matter.

An Ceann Comhairle: We are making very little progress at Questions today.

Mr. Walsh: Would the Minister agree that the conditions of employment as regards the taking on of apprentices are fairly stringent and that some firms might be in a position to take on some apprentices if some of those conditions were perhaps lowered to meet the situation? Would the Minister give some consideration to this?

Mr. M. O'Leary: I know the Deputy is very concerned about this matter because he has consistently put down questions on this whole problem of apprentices and future plans relating to them. The Deputy will appreciate that, even though we are in a very difficult situation as regards employment generally, we need to be very careful that we do not tamper with conditions drawn up with the apprentices' interests in mind. Perhaps it would not be such a good idea to tamper with them at this time. Certainly we shall bear in mind all aspects of the Deputy's question today and of his previous questions and we would hope to be in communication with him to give him any extra information that may come to our notice.

[1069] 18. Mr. Walsh asked the Minister for Labour the number of registered applicants for apprenticeships to all trades in the Dublin area at present.

Mr. M. O'Leary: A total of 1,750 persons, the great majority of whom are from Dublin city and county, are registered with the Dublin office of the National Manpower Service for apprenticeship vacancies in the trades designated under the Industrial Training Act, 1967.

Mr. Walsh: Would the Minister repeat the number?

Mr. M. O'Leary: A total of 1,750 persons, the great majority of whom are from Dublin city and county, are registered with the Dublin office of the National Manpower Service for apprenticeship vacancies in the trades designated under the Industrial Training Act, 1967.

Mr. Walsh: In view of the very large number mentioned, would it be possible for the Minister to initiate negotiations between himself and the Department of Defence which might be in a position to offer apprenticeships to some of these people?

Mr. M. O'Leary: I have been in touch with a number of State Departments in an effort to see that apprentices were given every opportunity possible.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald: With what results?

Mr. M. O'Leary: It would be foolish to pretend, and I do not for one moment pretend, that apprentices are immune from the general problem of unemployment; they are not. All we can do is ensure that, as long as this unemployment and current recession remain, we stretch to the utmost the capabilities of firms, private and State, to take on and retain as many apprentices as possible, because we have expended quite an amount of money on their training.

Mr. Walsh: May I take it that the Minister will be in touch with me if any progress is made with other Departments?

[1070] Mr. M. O'Leary: I will.

Mr. Walsh: Particularly the Department of Defence in relation to Baldonnel?

Mr. G. Fitzgerald: Do I detect a completely defeatist attitude or approach to this——

An Ceann Comhairle: A question, please, Deputy.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald: I am asking a question. Do I detect a completely defeatist attitude and approach to this entire situation? We all appreciate the seriousness of this problem but, unless it is tackled positively——

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy is continuing to make a speech. Question No. 19.

Mr. G. Fitzgerald: ——and quickly, then there is no hope for these people.

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