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Dáil Éireann - Volume 275 - 15 November, 1974

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Ballymun (Dublin) Project.

43. Mr. Tunney asked the Minister for Education the reason for the delay in the Ballymun project, Dublin.

Mr. R. Burke: As stated previously, the proposals of the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee for a new technological higher commercial college at Ballymun are intrinsically bound up with the future development of third level education generally, particularly in the Dublin area.

Examination of proposals in relation to the re-organisation of third-level education has now reached an advanced stage and action in relation to the Ballymun project will proceed when the Government have reached decisions on these proposals.

Mr. Tunney: May I press the Minister to give some indication as to how soon he thinks those decisions will be reached?

Mr. R. Burke: I regretfully have to decline the Deputy's invitation, for reasons that will be known to him.

Mr. Tunney: Would the Minister accept from me that unless the Government make a move shortly third level education in the city generally will move to a chaotic position?

[1599] An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy is now broadening the scope of the question.

Mr. R. Burke: I accept that there are difficulties in third level education but I would like to get the answer right rather than get it that much more quickly.

Mr. Tunney: I presume that if other allegedly educational authorities have adjudicated on the position to date the matter now before the Government is just one of the availability of money to proceed with it or is it being adjudicated upon at an educational level?

Mr. R. Burke: The questions before the Government involve both finance and educational matters but it is not the question of finance which is holding up the matter; it is a question of getting the right mix of proposals for third level education.

An Ceann Comhairle: Question No. 44.

Mr. Tunney: Would the Minister assure me that I need have no fears about what is described as university autonomy and that the universities are not in any way thwarting or inhibiting the efforts that are being made by the City of Dublin VEC?

Mr. R. Burke: I can give the Deputy the assurance that the universities are not thwarting any decisions in this matter.

Mr. Wilson: Is the Minister aware that he promised a White Paper and that he promised a Green Paper, dealing with third level education and gave dates?

An Ceann Comhairle: That is a separate matter.

Mr. Wilson: With respect, it arises as Ballymun is part of the third level complex.

An Ceann Comhairle: This question deals specifically with the Ballymun project. I cannot allow an extension of the question.

[1600] Mr. Wilson: Would the Ceann Comhairle in his indulgence not agree that the Minister's statement has linked Ballymun with third level generally and consequently my question is concerned with the question on the Order Paper?

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy is seeking to broaden the subject matter out of all proportion.

Mr. Wilson: The Minister broadened it, with respect. I am not broadening it. The third level generally incorporates Ballymun.

An Ceann Comhairle: We cannot discuss third level generally now.

Mr. Wilson: It is not a discussion. I am simply asking did the Minister not promise a White Paper and a Green Paper and he is now waiting for some kind of mix, which is a chef's term, in third level education.

An Ceann Comhairle: I want to help the Deputy but what he is seeking to raise is clearly a separate matter.

Mr. Wilson: Would the Minister, if he has the interests of third level non-university education in the city of Dublin at heart, make a decision on Ballymun fairly soon and let us know what it is?

Mr. R. Burke: In answer to the Deputy's final supplementary I have the interests of education in Dublin city very much at heart and I will announce the decision as soon as possible.

An Ceann Comhairle: Question No. 44, please.

Mr. Wilson: A Cheann Comhairle, I think in all fairness you are providing a shield for the Minister in this.

An Ceann Comhairle: That is an allegation the Deputy ought not to make and I must ask him to withdraw it. The Deputy will withdraw that statement.

Mr. Wilson: That is my conviction.

[1601] An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy will withdraw that statement or withdraw from the House.

Mr. Wilson: If I ask a question which is related to a question on the Order Paper——

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy may not argue with the Chair.

Mr. Wilson: I am not arguing. I am making a statement. If the Ceann Comhairle will not allow me to pursue a subsidiary question related to a question here I think it is wrong and that my rights as a Member of the House are being interfered with.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Chair ruled in the matter as outlined. The Deputy will withdraw the allegation he made against the Chair or leave the House.

Mr. Wilson: A Cheann Comhairle,—

An Ceann Comhairle: Unreservedly, Deputy, please. I cannot brook argument in the matter.

Mr. Wilson: On the semblance——

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Wilson, please.

Mr. Wilson: I am afraid, in all conscience, I cannot and will not withdraw it.

Mr. O'Kennedy: On a point of order, for the information of Members, if a Minister's reply relates to third level generally, is a Deputy not entitled to ask a supplementary on that?

An Ceann Comhairle: Please resume your seat, Deputy O'Kennedy. The Chair is on his feet.

Mr. O'Kennedy: We would like——

An Ceann Comhairle: Will you please assist the Chair? I am seeking to deal with disorder of a serious kind.

Mr. O'Kennedy: The Deputy's question arises from the Minister's reply.

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy Wilson, I must ask that you leave the House.

[1602] Mr. Tunney: A Cheann Comhairle, you do accept that the Minister when replying to my question did refer to third level education?

An Ceann Comhairle: The Chair will not be challenged in this fashion. Deputy Wilson, please.

Mr. Wilson: Before I leave I wish to say that you are unjust to me in your decision. You are unjust. My aim always has been to be courteous to the Chair, to be courteous to whoever is in the Chair. The last thing I want is to leave the House.

An Ceann Comhairle: Please withdraw entirely, Deputy Wilson.

Mr. Wilson: I am about to do so.

Deputy Wilson withdrew from the Chamber.

Mr. O'Kennedy: If the Minister in reply to a question broadens its scope, is a Deputy not entitled—can the Chair give us a direction on this matter—the Minister referred to third level education generally——

An Ceann Comhairle: Deputy O'Kennedy is getting back on the argument again. Question No. 44.

Mr. O'Kennedy: We may all be in the same position very shortly if this arises.

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